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GENDAITO BY KIYOKATSU


J Reid

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Josh,

That's a realy nice looking Gendaito there. If I were you, I would add to the description to emphasize that it does have the star stamp. Although you mention he was a RJT smith, that Star Stamp is what certifies that the blade is handmade from tamahagane, and some might miss it on the pics.

For novices..note how well signed it is, and the perfectly done yasurime. When seeing this on a wartime blade, you can start looking for signs it is a better blade. Compare with the regular slapdash wartime filemarks and "chippy" style mei.

 

Brian

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Great looking piece however from what I have read the star stamp designation is still much debated and the marine mounts attribution is definitely outdated. Its Army all the way in the recent reference books such as the updated Dawson work. Anyone care to comment on either of these two aspects?

 

Please understand I make these comments from the perspective of one still learning not as any criticism of the seller's position on the item.

 

Regards,

Stu

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Nonsense. As as been proven here before, the RJT had strict rules about what they could use and how they could use it.

No debate...Star stamp means Gendaito and tamahagane. Both Morita san and George will show the requirements to use the star stamp as published.

Search the forum, this has been discussed many times.

 

Brian

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Brian,

 

the RJT had strict rules about what they could use and how they could use it.

 

Leon and Hiroko Kapp Yoshindo Yoshihara don't say the same thing.

 

 

In view of this history, one must assume that if there is any kind of stamp on a blade from this period (from 1941 onward) at all, the sword is almost certainly a non traditional Showa-to. If the blade was made before 1940, it could possibly be a showa-to but is too old to bear the required stamp.
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Kapp and Yoshihara are incorrect.

 

I have discussed this with Yoshihara in the past. I asked him if his grandfather, as a RJT, produced any star stamped blades. He said one would never find a stamp on any of his grandfather's blades because he didn't make showa-to. I later showed him several oshigata of his grandfather's blades with star stamps. He was quite surprised...He has also said that the NBTHK would not paper any stamped blades. We know now that is not true as well...I believe his opinion has changed. It was a quite common opinion up until 15-20 years ago to lump all stamps together as non-traditional. Today we have proof otherwise.

 

I have spoken with several smiths who were actually RJT smiths during the war. I have first hand accounts verifying that RJT contract smiths were required to use tamahagane and charcoal and traditional methods.

 

The requirements for RJT made blades for the army under contract were clearly specified. These specifications require the blades be made of tamahagane. The star stamp is the acceptance mark placed on the blade after passing Army shinsa required for all Jumei Tosho produced blades. The RJT program, the requirements, the shinsa, and all other details, including tamahagane and charcoal usage by many RJT, are all recorded in the literature.

 

Many star stamped blades have passed NBTHK shinsa. See R. Stein's site for a list.

 

For anyone knowledgeable that has seen in hand star stamped blades, the fact that they are traditionally made is quite obvious.

 

As Brian has said above, this debate has been settled. I have done considerable research into this very topic in Japan using period documents, interviews with RJT themselves, and existing blades- all confirm that star stamped blades were made for the army under contract by smiths accepted into the RJT program and that the RJT program, as defined by the army, specified traditional materials and techniques.

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Great looking piece however from what I have read the star stamp designation is still much debated and the marine mounts attribution is definitely outdated. Its Army all the way in the recent reference books such as the updated Dawson work. Anyone care to comment on either of these two aspects?

 

Please understand I make these comments from the perspective of one still learning not as any criticism of the seller's position on the item.

 

Regards,

Stu

I would say army.

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Hi,

 

Many star stamped blades have passed NBTHK shinsa.

 

Where is the proof ? Show us a NBTHK origami of a star stamped sword.

 

About paper i came across this one :

 

http://new.uniquejapan.com/an-uomatsu-i ... to-katana/ Edit Admin - Link reported to have a malicious script in it..beware before clicking.

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My friend has a Seki Kanehide blade with a star stamp and it also got a 70 points NTHK paper at the 2010 San Francisco Shinsa (it looks just like Todd's paper and is also in the 500 serial number range...like Todd's it is also classified a katana, but is tachi mei). If you don't want to believe my words Jacques just let me know...I can show you a pic of the paper...but it is not as clear as Todd's.

 

Just a question: Jacques...have you ever held a star stamped RJT sword in your hand?

 

Regards,

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Brian, Chris, George- thank you. I think anyone who hasn't already clarified for themselves what a star stamp means... needs to do some "current" research. Cross reference old theory with new evidence. The only thing not traditional about a gendaito with a star stamp is the stamp itself.

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Moved to discussion section. And trust me...every benefit to the seller. Nothing like an extra few 1000 viewers to increase interest.

I am busy making a plan to upload some RJT documents tomorrow from a member. We have to understand that on the subject of Gendaito, more research is coming from the West than Japan itself, and much new info has come to light over the past 10 years. This is a fluid hobby with new discoveries constantly being made. There really cannot be any doubt exactly what the star stamp signifies.

 

Brian

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Moved to discussion section. And trust me...every benefit to the seller. Nothing like an extra few 1000 viewers to increase interest.

 

Thanks Brian, I believe what you say. I should stir some controversy regarding the tanto and tsuba I hope to sell :glee: I shut up now :lipssealed:

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Hi,

 

James

 

there is no virus hidden in my link.

 

The blade below is papered by the NTHK NPO. It is obviously a stamped showa-to. Are these kind of shinsa really reliable ?

 

gunto-1-edit-full_imagesia-com_2mbs_large.jpg

 

 

Sorry Jacques, But everytime I click that link I get a Virus message warning. My software stopped it both times .

It is a trojan Horse and may not be picked up by standard virus software . I use a program originally designed by military systems analyst. Would be wise to use some caution . Hope I didnt cause you any problems ........Respectfully James

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Where is the proof ? Show us a NBTHK origami of a star stamped sword.

 

About paper i came across this one :

 

http://new.uniquejapan.com/an-uomatsu-i ... to-katana/

 

I've ridden this merry-go-round with you before on this issue. As I have told you and posted many times in the past, I personally submitted a Tsukamoto Okimasa blade with star stamp to the NBTHK and received Hozon kantei sho. I have since sold the sword and no longer have the origami. There are several dozen RJT on Dr. Stein's site that are reported to have received NBTHK kanteisho as well. If you don't wish to believe me, perhaps Dr. Stein can hook you up with someone that sent the info to him. I have done my homework and see no point in doing yours.

 

I really don't care all that much what you choose to believe. Some people still believe the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon. Book knowledge only takes you so far. At some point you have to get experience with real swords, sword smiths, togi-shi, legitimate researchers, and shinsa'in. When you have done some actual original research on the topic with period literature and witnesses to the events being discussed, let us know. At that point I will actually consider your opinions informed. Until then, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

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In view of this history, one must assume that if there is any kind of stamp on a blade from this period (from 1941 onward) at all, the sword is almost certainly a non traditional Showa-to. If the blade was made before 1940, it could possibly be a showa-to but is too old to bear the required stamp.

 

If my English is good enough, when the author says "one must assume", he brings no proof at all, no documentation at all to support the word "assume"

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Jacques

you may wish to reconsider yor post. To say you dont believe anything you dont see is an extremely narow minded approach. When a respected member here states he has had a sword papered, to not believe him without seeing it amounts to suggesting he is being dishonest.

I hope that neither of these are what you intended in your post as both are unacceptable.

Regards

Paul

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I have just forwarded copies of the original RJT Regulations of 1941 (from Morita san) and the English translation of them (by me) to Brian. He will post them for all to read.

I own/have owned RJT blades by

Muto Hidehiro

Nagao Kunishiro

Nakata Kanehide

Yamagami Munetoshi

ALL are traditionally made.

I have not seen NBTHK papers for RJT blades but I have seen NTHK papers. Other members have seen NBTHK papers. There is no question in the minds of reasonable people that RJT star stamp means traditionally mede.

 

Jacques, I think that site you posted is a "shady" dealer with a shady sword and a shady NTHK paper (which he did not show)...since there are so many shady dealers over the years there are of course many shady nihonto also and of course many shady NBTHK papers as well...I am surprised you have such strong faith in the NBTHK Jacques, you should do what we do, examine the sword as the primary evidence...let the sword tell the real story...you would see that the star stamp means excellent traditional nihonto.

 

So,Jacques since you are so attracted to papers, please read the documents Brian will post of the RJT Regulations. These are the ORIGINAL documents from the government of Japan. These show that a RJT sword MUST be traditionally made out of traditional material before they receive a star stamp of APPROVAL. So...please tell us how many of your swords have passed such a series of tests like those described in these regulations?...and please tell us how you can know this and how you can prove this?

 

Personally, I am happy to have a star stamp on my swords! On the basis of these documents alone it can be proved that if a sword has a star stamp it is traditional and has been tested... in fact... it DOES NOT NEED PAPERS!

Of course, because of shady dealers like the one you chose Jacques, we must always appraise each sword on quality anyway.

 

Regards

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Thanks Guys for this discussion. I am not/never been interested in Gendaito. I am rather in Koto.

 

I have, I don't know why, always assimilated star stamped blades as non traditionally made, now I am learning it is the opposite. I have learned something today so I will go to bed tonight better educated in Nihonto field :)

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