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Do you use your nihonto for tameshigiri?


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Hans, you've asked several questions.

 

For iaido, most of us use iaito, which are aluminum-alloy blades that cannot be sharpened. More advanced students use iaito made from steel, also with a dulled edge. A very few of us also use Nihonto for non-contact iaido. None of us use Nihonto for tameshigiri, or at least none who know what they are doing. We use shinken, which are sharp steel "live blades," for tameshigiri. Cutting tatami omote or bamboo will scratch the surface of your blade because of the silicon which both contain, so of course as careful caretakers of our Nihonto, we all know that it would be a very bad idea to use them.

 

Ken

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Dear Hans and Ken,

I am new here. Yoroshiku onegai itashimasu.

 

In Japan, we can have only Traditionally made Nihonto by law.

we can not make or import mono-steel blade,

Even we can not import machine made(mono-steel oil tempered) blade from ww2.

 

so, everybody use real Nihonto, Most of them are using modern smith's blade for Tameshigiri in Japan.

In fact, there is a lot of Gimei. Osuriage mumei, or Ubu-mumei Shinshinto swords are made by modern smith....

( most of them were not done on purpose by smith, it has done by dealers and collectors put them into Antique market )

or some people use ww2 sword (hand forged water tempered blade), but it is only 65cm,

 

However, The point of using real katana for cutting practice is Ha-Niku, not really sharpness of the edge.

the combination of Sori(curve) and Ha-niku makes Japanese sword to cut through the target.

Clean cutting Tatamiomote, bamboo, even leaves or steel pipe, with good shaped (good sugata and haniku) sword.

from those reasons, A good sword and good Shitaji-togi(basic polish) is important for leaning real movement.

Only HIGHLY SKILLED PERSON could use super sharpen blade like sashimi knife for demonstration.

 

When we exam Old Master pieces, we can see those beautiful Sugata, and Perfect Ha-Niku which preserved by Generation of Master polishers.

 

Best regards,

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Chris,

No...he is saying that given alternatives, most people would use substitutes for collectible Nihonto. Where those are not allowed..they use genuine swords, but they try not to use collectible or antique blades. This is good advice imho.

If this topic becomes an argument, consider it history.

 

Brian

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Hello guys,

 

thank you very much for your reply.

I also use iaito for iado. I know a man, who started to use a sharp sword for practising, one day he cut one of his finger on the training....

 

I was just interested that does anyone has experience that how the cheaper antik swords acts on a cutting test.

 

So if you use modern shinken, do you mean chinese blades?

I use a modern T10 tool steal blade with made in Japan koshirae parts for battodo.

I know some people that like to use WW2 blades for cutting practise.

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Hans, I've trained in iaido for several decades, so using a sharpened blade doesn't pose much risk...as long as I'm paying really close attention! In our Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu dojo, only iaito are allowed, even for those of us who are very experienced. In our Shinto-Ryu dojo, on the other hand, only Nihonto are allowed. Different Sensei with different goals & objectives.

 

I apologize for not stating that Nihonto, although defined literally as "Japanese swords," are in my case considered to be Shinshinto or earlier. I use a nice Bizen Nihonto that's about 450 years old, while my wife uses an even nicer 400-year-old Soshu blade. For tameshigiri, she uses a shinken from Cold Steel, while I use one forged somewhere in the Midwest.

 

Ken

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When you say that in the other school only Nihonto allowed, do you mean that only sharp swords can be used?

 

That is correct, Hans, only Nihonto (by definition a sharp blade) can be used. Perhaps I ought to amend that by asking if anyone knows of Nihonto that weren't sharpened?

 

Our Sensei (Menkyo Kaiden) has developed an entirely new ryuha that corresponds with many of the kata in Shinto Muso-Ryu jodo, & in fact I am just finishing up the training DVD that will be sent out to jodo sensei all over the world. He also has us train outside on the side of a mountain, rain or shine, although we don't get our Nihonto wet. It is a much more realistic way to understand MSR jodo.

 

Ken

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Hans, I've trained in iaido for several decades, so using a sharpened blade doesn't pose much risk...as long as I'm paying really close attention! In our Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu dojo, only iaito are allowed, even for those of us who are very experienced. In our Shinto-Ryu dojo, on the other hand, only Nihonto are allowed. Different Sensei with different goals & objectives.

 

I apologize for not stating that Nihonto, although defined literally as "Japanese swords," are in my case considered to be Shinshinto or earlier. I use a nice Bizen Nihonto that's about 450 years old, while my wife uses an even nicer 400-year-old Soshu blade. For tameshigiri, she uses a shinken from Cold Steel, while I use one forged somewhere in the Midwest.

 

Ken

Ken, just out of curiousity, have you ever considered having a pair of shinsaku-to made for you and your wife, or do you feel like it wouldn't be worth the cost?

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Thank you for your kind words Chris. Good to you that you are well experienced already, but I didn't know that there are schools where only sharp swords are allowed to be used for iaido, I guess even for starters. I thought that the meaning of Nihonto is Japanese made sword, didn't know it must be sharpened too. Of course I guess every nihonto was sharpened, but the owner can unsharpen it.

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Hans -

Don't take Chris' comments to heart. These are natural questions, maybe better suited to an MA forum but quite understandable that someone would ask. I for one am following the thread and find it interesting.

 

ChrisSF I am guessing you have never heard of Ha-biki?

 

-t

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Hello all, avid iaijutsu here.. I've used nothing but true nihonto for kata for a while now, before that mainly bokuto. Obviously no cutting with old swords...

 

I'm glad other people use them for their practicle side as well!

 

Respectfully,

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In my Dojo, for Iaijutsu, only shinken are used. No old Nihonto for Tameshigiri of course. My first school used only Iaito...my Sensei now is a 6th Dan in MJER and also teaches Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo. He uses a Koto blade for practice and the students use shinken.

He tells me that when he goes back to Japan, his Senseis joke about those who use non-sharp swords. However, his #1 concern is safety!

 

Curt

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Mr Helm,the fact that the Japanese have seperate terms for those swords,only serves to reinforce the point I'm making which is that the term 'nihonto' can only apply to a traditionally made and forged sword with a functional edge,anything other than that cannot be described as nihonto.

Do you not agree that it is rather disrespectful and somewhat demeaning to include a sword with a deliberately blunted edge (because someone's frightened of cutting a finger) in the same group as works by Masamune,Yoshifusa,Kanemitsu?

Iaito have no relevance to nihonto,they are two distinct and seperate items just as iaido is not about swordsmanship.

Of course I am not advocating the use of valuable antique swords for either kata or tameshigiri but there is no doubt that using a live,sharp blade is a great incentive to focus on correct technique.

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the term 'nihonto' can only apply to a traditionally made and forged sword with a functional edge,anything other than that cannot be described as nihonto.

 

Never heard anything about a "functional edge", nor am I quite sure what you mean by it. A battered old koto blade with a chipped and rusted edge is still 'nihonto' - Japanese sword. Nihonto means Japanese sword, as in a real sword made in Japan...but nothing about condition or polish or sharpness or edge.

 

Iaito have no relevance to nihonto,they are two distinct and seperate items just as iaido is not about swordsmanship.

lol wut?

 

there is no doubt that using a live,sharp blade is a great incentive to focus on correct technique.
This I can agree with..to some extent at least.
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Alex,there is a big difference between a sword that has become blunt through use and one that is deliberately blunted because it might be dangerous to the user.When you take the edge off a sword it is no longer a sword,it's an iron bar.

 

Do you also consider that a zinc bladed iaito has any equivalence with a nihonto?

 

What do you think swordsmen like Nakayama Hakudo used?

 

Read what Taisaburo Nakamura said about iaido.

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Good morning Everybody.

This subject become active !!

 

My sword : Katana is made in 2002 by Kunimasa Matsuba.

It is made from 100% Tamahagane.

He use tamahagane mixed with his own made steel or old iron for Art or contest sword to make beautiful old looking Jitetsu.

but, for using, It better to use 100% tamahagane, so, Jitetsu become kind of boring Itame-nashiji hada, but, quality is stable, the blade will stay strong for longer time.

(and it is not art sword polish, only Shita-ji togi + a bit, so you can not really see the hada anyway)

 

The blade is Shinogi-zukuri (ofcause), Ko-fuse Kitae and carefully hummered Shinogi (shinogi-ji is Itame-hada if you give art polish ), because, i think it is stronger than Masame-hada-shinogi like Mino-den or Shinto.

 

Nagasa : 72cm, Sori : 2.0cm, Motohaba : 3.2cm, Moto-Kasane : 0.8cm, Sakihaba : 2.0cm, Saki-Kasane : 0.45cm.

 

Sugata is basicly Koshi-zori with a bit Saki-zori (for quick draw). so, it became looks like "Oei-Bizen" style.

I am mostly cutting bamboo or harder target. and for practice, made it very thick Ha-niku, almost "Hamaguri-ba".

so Hira-ji shape is like Kamakura period tachi shape.

the blade is stronger and i can have High wide Gunome-midare hamon. it makes the blade last longer as well...i think.

 

as you see the size of the blade, my sword is wide thick Moto, and slim and thin Saki. so, the center of weight is very close to tsuka(hand),

it makes draw, swing easier and faster for me.

and create very sharp strong Tsuki.

 

The Edge,

About 10cm from Hamachi is Ubu-ba (un-sharpened) and cutting edge is not really sharp. I can put my finger on cutting edge and slice from mid till monouchi, my finger doesn't cut. if you push hard. ofcause, it cut, but, not sharp as normal art sword polish or kitchen knife.

 

Nakago

is regular, maybe a bit shorter. When i hold Tsuka, my both hands are touching each other, so, i don't need long Tsuka.

from this reason, mine is Higo Koshirae style.

Position of Mekugi-Ana is perfectly center of my right hand palm. and have Steel Mekugi.

 

Cutting with thick hamaguri-ba blade need accurate swing. needs perfect ha-suji, meaning is Te no Uchi is important.

if you swing perfect Ha-Suji, you can feel very special cutting though. That is THE Japanese SWORD CUTTING !

it is completely different cutting from the cutting with thinner flat surfaced sharp knife.

 

I used my sword for Tameshigiri seminar for a few years, cut more than 5000 Bamboo, used loughly by more than 300 different level of people.

but, it is still fine, it will be ok for next 10-20 years.

 

Priolity of Functional Japanese sword is Hamon and Haniku (or Niku-oki).

It makes Japanese sword very unique and special.

That is why Japanese sword polisher is different from Kitchen knife polisher.

as everybody knows that Polishing stone for Sword is rounded surface, for Kitchen knife must have Flat surface,

Because, Hira-ji of Japanese sword is not flat.

The skill of the polisher is how to preserve that Hira-niku.

Tired blade is meaning that Less-Ha-niku which is less functional. is meaning less value....

 

I think that good tool is important for leaning.

if you know you have a right tool, and you cut well, you have right skill.

it is very important that you trust your weapon.

 

Ha-biki (less sharp) is not for safety for users, is for more functional reason and for less risk of damaging the blade.

 

i hope you understand my immature Japanese English explanation. _(..)_

What do you think ?

 

Best regards,

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Kunitaro san,thank you for your excellent and most informative posts and please do not apologise for your English as I doubt that there are many here who could express themselves that well in Japanese.

I was recently reading about your swordsmith Matsuba Kunimasa who studied under Kobayashi Yasuhiro I believe who made swords for Toshishiro Obata and whose purpose was to recreate strong blades capable of cutting well.I see that Matsuba Kunimasa has the same purpose and demonstrates his blades in cutting.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to post some images of the blade and koshirae for us to see and enjoy?

I also find your comments about the length of tsuka interesting as I find the normal size gunto tsuka to be good as well as the menuki being in the right place,many of the Chinese made swords have much longer tsuka which I feel are too long to use with ease.

Welcome to NMB,I'm sure we will all enjoy your posts.

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Kunitaro sama,

 

Thanks a lot for all this information and for giving answers to the Why's. That is what I call a post (for once) complete and conclusive.

 

I would like you guys to follow this example in this topic.

 

To be frank, I was very very close from locking this topic as it was going nowhere. Your post, Kunitaro sama, has enlightened it and I give you all my thanks for it :bowdown:

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You are correct in that he tested swords for Kurihara Hikosaburo,the sword he mostly used was gendaito by Minamoto Yoshichika which he used on one occasion to cut through the hips of a dead pig holding the blade by the bare tang.

I think this tells more about his ability and understanding of ha-suji than the sharpness of the blade but my point is that the founder of Muso Shinden ryu used a real sword that was capable of cutting NOT a zinc blade iaito or unsharpened edge.

I am not a 'martial artist',I have studied Japanese swords for over thirty years and deliberately chose not to become involved in that aspect because in my mind the prevalent attitude was very shallow and restricted by both the dogma and politics that abound in martial arts.

I was lucky enough to go to a good old English grammar school so academically I follow the western tradition of questioning what I see from different aspects,thus I have tried to study the Japanese sword from all possible standpoints in order to achieve the fullest understanding that I can.That has involved the entire course of Japanese history,the history of the sword itself,the use of the Japanese sword in history and examination of the martial arts where the sword is used.I have owned and used a lot of swords over the years,I've had some very good ones and some really terrible ones (who said that all nihonto are 'art swords'? Wrong!),I've cut bamboo poles and beach mats,the bamboo not the green bamboo but dry cane about 1 1/2" thick that was used for rolling carpets,I've cut myself several times but NEVER while using a sword,only when I've been fiddling about trying to sharpen or in the case of the worst cut (to the bone) trying to remove rust from a koto Fuyuhiro tanto.

Part 2 to follow.

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The Japanese sword embodies not only the spirit and soul of Japan but also of all those who took up the sword for their cause from the Mongol invasion to the Nanpo kirikomi tai as well as the men (and woman?) who created so many masterpieces.

It seems that over the course of time with the transition from 'jutsu' to 'do' real martial spirit and awareness of what the use of the sword entails has dissipated.

Thus I find reference to 'unsharpened nihonto' and 'not getting our nihonto wet' rather ridiculous especially considering that swordsmen of old refined mae and technique by cutting raindrops and snow and Nakayama Hakudo considered cutting water the ultimate test of a swordsman's skill.

I don't pretend to know all there is to know either about swords or swordsmanship but I have made every effort to achieve a rounded and informed view without restraints of dogma or politics and I would just ask that people examine their perspectives on the profound meaning of nihonto and respect it accordingly.

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