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Similar swords?


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No..of course not the same. But he does get them in batches from Japan.

I often wonder if there are indeed Japanese smiths working elsewhere, turning out modern swords signed with obscure names, or maybe inside Japan...mass producing shinsakuto and signing them with various names. If you are clued up on the torokusho laws or have contacts, you might be able to have them registered as newly found swords. Or remove existing mei, and refile and re-sign the nakago.

Not the case here I'm sure...but the number of swords like this that appear lately do make me wonder about some of the stuff that appears en masse on websites and for sale. Same applies to horimono...we see the same ones appearing on Gendaito, possibly being done by someone in quantity today using some mass production method. Gives an uneasy feeling..

 

Brian

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This reminds me of a story I heard some time back.

 

Registered gendai swordsmiths are permitted to produce only two blades per month. Most cannot make a living at this, even if they are lucky enough to sell two blades each month. About ten years ago, a “starving” swordsmith was approached by a dealer and agreed to produce 30 blades that were then popularly known as Kiyomaro copies, long blades with o-kissaki. I think they were paid no more than several hundred dollars per blade. The dealer then had them polished, and ones that turned out decent were given the Kiyomaro signature, by another professional in that field. Such blades cannot be marketed in Japan because they lack the registration/production certificate. So they were shipped overseas, and then re-imported back to Japan. At the customs, they only judge if the blade was produced in a traditional manner, and determining the authenticity of the signature is not within their jurisdiction, so naturally they were given the registration certificate. Thus they became legal merchandise in Japan. Ones that are not good enough to be marketed in Japan were sold overseas.

 

I think a similar scheme is still going on, perhaps more now than before, thanks to the slow economy. They are good gendai blades, but you cannot trust the signature. Buy the blade, not the signature.

 

Kaji

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I would tend to believe knowing the seller that that the blades are as indicated, and whether they are bought as similar to each other or whatever I have no idea. Maybe his contact had a collection of gendaito smiths or the shipping box would hold 4 longer blades. He in fact may have bought them without shira-saya. Saying they are similar is like saying a bunch of Mercedes and Porsches and BMW are similar - all german cars but not the same.

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Hi Dave,

I can't say much about the swords #2,3,4, but if it helps, I can report that the first sword, by Heianjo Minamoto Sukemitsu looks pretty true to his origins.

Name Takeshita, of Shiga (Omi), b. Taisho 4, RJT. Hawley 1981 SUK740, TK340. He studied under the 2nd Gen Okishiba Heianjo Minamoto Masatsugu of Osaka (I have a sword by his brother).

The nakago bears the correct kessho and inscription details for this line of smiths (Heianjo and Minamoto, shape, jiri etc).

His teacher was associated with the Gassan pupil Enomoto Sadayoshi, hence that kessho style.

I can't say the swords are by the same man although they do look similar in some respects (perhaps for iaido?), I can only add the info above which is from'Nihon Gendaitosho shoshi (nbthk) Uchiyama 1969 V, p.7.

Regards,

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well it does seem interesting that they are all suguha, and mostly with a conspiciously coarse lamination line running through the hamon.

 

similar to this one as well:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHINSAKUTO-Gend ... 1c2aa32e6c

 

there seems to be a glut of low grade shinsakuto on ebay right now -- not a bad deal for someone looking for an iai blade...

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/katsuragi_japan ... 4340.l2562

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Perceptive....

 

I think the following very odd:

 

-3 out of 4 seem to have nearly identical hada and hamon

-the smiths reputed to have made them aren't known for this work style

-none of the 3 are dated

-the mei look very fresh for smiths that are, I believe, long gone

 

This seller seems to have an inexhaustible supply of eyebrow raising gendai direct from Japan, most of which I would run from as fast as possible.

 

There is no doubt that shenanigans are going on in Japan. Always have been and always will be. With the demand for newly made swords nearly nonexistent at present, it is no surprise that some resort to less than honest means.

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Just to clarify, and make it perfectly clear: None of these are the same picture, sword or maker. They are all similar because of the way the seller photographs his swords and the fact that this bunch are of similar age and style.

The comments about sword production in Japan are unrelated to these items, and are broad statements/opinions about the situation in Japan currently.

I don't want anyone to think these comments relate to the swords or seller in the original post. The seller has always been open with his items, and questions that are submitted are answered honestly imho. These are not represented as anything besides what they are, and like any online swords must be valued as mumei or gimei unless you have evidence to the contrary.

 

Brian

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I've got to agree, it certainly makes one wonder.... The hamon and kissaki of all 4 do seem to be by the same maker.

Some homework regarding nakago/mei/yaurime must have been done at time of signing as the nakago of two at least vary,and the mei titles and yasurime on #1 do follow the style of the maker as proclaimed by the mei, but those hamon are just too similar to be 4 blades by 4 makers IMHO.

I do know that #1 (Sukemitsu) entered 10 postwar Shinsakuto Exhibs, but I don't have pics/oshi of his work.

So, looks like they might be "a bundle" of undated gimei? swords, but as has been said, if cheap enough they would be ok for iaido.

 

I notice the seller doesn't make any extravagent claims or describe the hamon and hada at all.

Regards,

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I know that ebay is "Fair Game," though surely one must have some integrity when selling on a large scale. Could this just be naivety, on the part of the seller? Here is a wonderful lesson for beginners. This was only picked up by experience looking at many, many swords, over quite a while.

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well it does seem interesting that they are all suguha, and mostly with a conspiciously coarse lamination line running through the hamon.

 

similar to this one as well:

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/katsuragi_japan ... 4340.l2562

Sorry, I know this is not really concerning this thread but...

I guess this is not the well know RJT Kojima Kanemichi (at least mei to fresh ....)?!

Even I am unable to decipher the date?!?! Showa X ju (maybe) X nen hachi gatsu X nen :dunno:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230842153524?ru ... 26_rdc%3D1

 

many thanks

Klaus

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They are all considered gendai unless proven otherwise in any event but as others have said, there are strange things going on in Japan - their economy is affected as well, and any blades that can't be sold there are being sent to dealers out of the country who can market them to less knowledgeable buyers.

 

Takakage has it right on about the lineage of these blades I am sure - same smith - different mei's, only good for iai do -

 

Even sellers like this who end up telling you the history of the smith whose signature is on the blade does not state that he is the smith who forged it.

 

Curious and curiouser as the cat said and it inst going to get better. Has anyone here ever said - buyer beware > :bang:

 

I got ripped on a fake watch because they stated that all the items were original replacements - well they were original all right -just not original manufacturers and the re-stock was 25% !! My credit card company refunded the money after I pointed out the lies on the site - not so sure one could do this with Nihonto.

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Wow I dont drop by for a couple of weeks and all this stuff to read. Anyway firstly I have a bit to add to this so I will start with I am selling the Shinsakuto on Ebay and I had acquired it through the states early last year. I have a few shinsakuto inc one by Ono (kenpaku) Yasutoshi dated 1995 and another that George Trotter should remember from the shinsa from Masatoshi Sugiyama I think dated 1976. The reason I mention these 2 is that they both have similar activity in the Hamon, the Yasutoshi also having Suguha.

Similarity ends there though. The Shinsakuto I have listed (this is not a justification or a defense to pre said comments) has a very nice flawless itame hada and evenly controlled noiguchi, anyone familiar with cheap nihon Iaito on the market would be familiar with the almost Muji looking hada and ugly Sugata that they display. I see these cheaper blades on a regular basis and my way of thinking would be that if you were going to sell on Ebay (which does not by any stretch reflect true market value often in both directions) these would be the way to go in a modern Iaito (acid assist) polish.

In saying that I have thought that many of these blades that Mike offers do look to be very similar and sometimes a little questionable. Another way to look at it is as has been mentioned is that they are in all regards cheap for what they are and this should be taken into account in comparison. . . . I have seen Tozando alloy blades more expensive.

As for the Shirasaya they are made from poplar, Mike uses the same American guy to make his Saya and I have seen these pop up often on a variety of blades even as recently as a couple of weeks ago on a papered shinshinto. While I am not fond of these they do get around and I dont think should be indicative of a blades merit.

And just to throw a spanner in the works check out "jade steel" being made in China, now that might be something to worry about in the not to distant future. . . oh and while I think of it I remember hearing that there have been a number of Japanese smiths since the seventies that made blades outside of Japan to avoid registration limitations.

 

Kam

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All,

I am surprised we are being this open about active auctions. We can all contact Mike if we have questions and I can attest he is very honest with his response. I'll not agree or disagree with anything said to date.

 

My main concern here is how has this discussion effected the price of these blades? Many of us have dealt with Mike in the past and I don't think he would knowingly pass fakes off. One tip for folks that are newer to the board. Figure out who you can ask questions to in private and trust their opinion. I have pinged a couple on this thread just to get a second opinion and I strongly suggest we all do the same. These may be legitimate, these may not be. If they are I worry we just dropped the selling price on these swords for a typically (in my experience) honest dealer. If not, we just advertised a bunch of swords saying they may be legitimate. Either way this is a non-winner.

 

I'm surprised this hasn't been locked down yet.

 

:dunno:

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Why would anything bring down the price? It's not like they are being presented as Shinto or Koto or any big names. They are being presented exactly as they are described here...Gendai blades with no real provenance, by relatively obscure makers that are certainly Nihonto, and would be good for Iai. I don't see any claims that they are anything special, and since they have no fatal flaws...they would be purchased by someone looking for a sword of that length or description.

How do we educate anyone about anything if we don't have examples to discuss? I am sure Mike is aware of this thread, there are always readers that run to sellers and point it out...every single time. However, I am sure Mike is also aware of the fact that he has always been pointed out as an honest seller, who will give honest answers to any questions put to him, and will show and mention flaws in his items. We also know he has a good (endless?) supply of swords out of Japan..many of which have old and unreliable attributions or have something that makes them less likely to sell in Japan, but then they fetch fair prices usually. And this is known by most in the Nihonto community. I don't think he claims any more than that, and his buyers accept that and are repeat buyers. That is a good name in the industry as far as I am concerned.

Joe..you yourself have seen how Shinsakuto can be faked. So perhaps a bit of education to newcommers will avoid those traps out there.

If this was a big name sword, and we were insinuating it was a fake and lowering the price..I would have ended this. But they are clearly being sold as what they are...and in fact there is every chance that the increased exposure here will raise the prices..not lower them, since they will make ideal Iai swords. Another 100,000 views can't hurt.

 

Brian

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I have to agree Brian, I only looked at this thread in terms of the OP...that these swords (signed with individual names) all looked like they were made by the same hand. I didn't see the discussion as implying anything about the seller....in fact I commented that he didn't claim anything or make any great description about them...just length, name, period...that's all.

I am one who does not like to see current auctions discussed in terms of value, ID etc, but in this case, I saw it as a genuine matter of curiosity...not value/desireability etc.

I don't think the seller would take this thread as a gross negative against him would he?

regards,

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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