translation help

[peter]

Hello all,

i hope someone could help with this tanto mei, (30cm) i may have,, Kuni and Masa , kanji on both sides,

many thanks,

Peter

[cabowen]

One side says Oite Toto (in Tokyo) then something illegible. The other side has ? ? ? Kuni then masa then something else....Maker maybe Masa ?....

 

Seems shinshinto or early kindai to....

 

I bet Morita san will have the answer...

[peter]

Thank you Chris,

i know it would be hard since the kanji was where the mekugi ana are now, this seems to be a good find for me as it came in what i think is meiji or tourist style dark wooden carved dragon mounts. i do hope Morita san can shed more light on this tanto,

Peter

[george trotter]

I also think modern...shinshinto-gendaito.

1. Oite Toto ??

2. ?? kuni Masa(kiyo?)

If it is this name, there were two: in Shimane and in Tokushima...both born in early Meiji.

Edit to add...might be

Oite Toto tsukuru kore

Regards,

[Nobody]

The first kanji on the omote side is 讃. The first part Maybe 讃岐 (Sanuki).

[peter]

Thank you all very much for your help on this one its much appreciated.

Peter

[cabowen]

Something about this reminds me of the smith Masahiro (正博）from Shikoku....Try finding an oshigata and compare- I can't seem to find one...　If it is not him it may be someone related...

[peter]

Thanks Chris,

This seems to be the only 1 i can find with province and era but can,t find anything that makes sence to match the kuni and masa on the tang..what do you think?

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/MAS219

Peter

[cabowen]

Not that smith. Masahiro 正博

 

He was from Shikoku. Search this site as I recall an oshigata posted of his blade not too long ago....

[george trotter]

Chris,

Just thinking out loud, but could your memory banks have "remembered" Masahiro for a smith actually called Hiromasa (same kanji but reversed order) of Ehime. Shikoku?

 

I mention this because I can't find a Masahiro for Shikoku, but know of a Hiromasa there, conversely, if this mei's prefecture kanji is Sanuki as Moriyama san thinks, then it is still Shikoku, but maybe it is Masakiyo (Ittosai)?, although I agree, your Hiro does seem to fit also...this is a hard one.

Regards,

[cabowen]

Yes, you are right George- I was thinking of Hiromasa and reversed the kanji.....Ittosai Masakiyo is perhaps more likely. Thanks for the correction.

[peter]

Thanks Chris and George,

I went through all 14 pages of Masahiro last night i will go through the Hiromasa later and hopefully find our man. Maybe the swordsmith was feeling mischievious on that day . Signed the tang then put a ruddy big hole through it to give us something to do in our spare time good research blade

Peter

[george trotter]

Peter san,

No, with Hiromasa you will be wasting your time...it is either Ittosai Masakiyo of Sanuki - Shikoku, or else Masahiro (but we can't find one for Sanuki - Shikoku)...both kiyo and hiro in this case look similar, especially when a hole is punched through the kanji and only leaves it partially readable.

Good luck with this...you have got most of the translation now (hopefully)...you just need to study, study...tell us what you find.

Regards,

[peter]

I will do thanks again George.

[george trotter]

I have been doing some snooping on this mei and I feel confident enough to run this finding past the members...I'd appreciate your comments here Chris.

I looked up Masakiyo in Ono 1971 p.138 and Ono 1977 p.117 and found that:

Kobayashi Masakiyo (personal name Masaharu) was a Tokushima (Shikoku) man born Meiji 44. In Sho 8 he went to Kyoto to study under Morita Masamichi. He got the name Masakiyo on his independence and he went in Sho 17 to work in swords in Tokushima and then later as RJT at Osaka Arsenal until 1945.

I think, having this info, I would feel confident to revise the reading of the mei on this kodzuka. I think it actually says:

 

Oite Kyoto tsukuru kore

Sanuki kuni Masakiyo (or more likely Masa haru...his pre-independent name).

 

As his personal name haru and his art name kiyo both have the same "aoe" right side radical, I speculate that this blade was made in Kyoto by Masaharu who came from Sanuki, a not yet independent student of Morita Masamichi (but maybe it is his first "independent" tanto signed Masakiyo).

If the members agree that this is a real possibility...then the blade must be made at Kyoto between Sho 8 and Sho 17 when Masakiyo was still the student Masaharu...I'd stick my neck out even further and say the apparent "simpleness" of the kanji script indicates he is new to cutting mei....of course as stated it could also be his earliest work as Masakiyo, but the date Sho 17 must still apply.

 

So, I'd like to hear your comments and yes...feel free to correct/condemn/burnt at the stake etc...but that's all part of the fun of nihonto .

 

Peter,interesting little study you gave us...thanks!

Regards,

[cabowen]

Seems reasonable George but it all hinges on whether or not the location is Kyoto 京都 and not Toto　東都.....I think we need a better photo of that part of the mei to know for sure. The picture above isn't the best to make a call with certainty....

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

yes the pic makes it hard (not to mention the bl**dy great hole in the middle).

 

Anyway, Peter...a nice find...If the maker can be confirmed as Kobayashi Masakiyo, RJT smith, and it looks like good work, it might be worthwhile getting this polished by a good polisher in Japan as WWII period tantos are rarely seen.

Just my opinion.

I don't know if this helps, but here is a 1981 work by Ittosai Masakiyo.

http://www.tokka.biz/sword/masakiyo.html

Regards,

[Nobody]

I am sorry, but I do not agree with the "Kobayashi Masakiyo" theory.

Sanuki is not related to Tokushima but Kagawa. And the place name on the ura-side does not look Kyoto.

[george trotter]

Ok, I see. If it is definitely Tokyo then this ruins my theory.

About the province ...Sanuki/Kagawa and Awa/Tokushima are side by side on Shikoku. I thought these were close enough to be covered by the use of the word Sanuki....Although his working address is given in the sources as Tokushima, maybe (another theory) he was born next door in Sanuki?

Anyway Peter...Moriyama san has raised enough points to make some doubts about my theory...sorry, back to square one...damn good theory while it lasted!

Regards,

[peter]

hi guys,,

NOoooooo. i thought this was done, i posted some pics on Nihonto Club if they help, under 'recent posts'.

 

http://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths

[george trotter]

Don't despair Peter,

Knowledgeable folk have looked at your pics and have come to conflicting conclusions...this can be quite commom. Best thing you can do is take some better pics of blade, features and mei etc and post them...it may help.

I have two signed swords of the 1868-1945 modern period myself for which I can't ID the makers.

regards,

[peter]

Hello again Gents im hoping to put on more picture of the Tanto so that it may make it better place its Smith and original home,

could it be late muromachi or Shinto? it is 30.2cm in nagasa, blade 21.5 so is this ko wakizashi or sunnobi tanto? the file marks are kesho yasuri. Hamon seems Notare Gonome, it looks nice like a mountain landscape, so maybe Toran, lots of activity. any and all additional input is apprieciated.

Peter

[peter]

looking at the pics they seem dull i thought they where better,

[runagmc]

Since it was obviously made as a tanto, and the nagasa is a hair over 30cm, I think it could just be called a tanto... unless you just like the way sunnobi tanto sounds.

 

Kesho yasurime would point to a later era...

[peter]

hi Adam,

not at all , Tanto is fine i was just reading up a little and wasn't sure how precise you need to be in terminology on tanto/wakazashi .as far as anything else on the Tanto could any one say if the details in it points to revealing the smith , as there where conflicting views earlier in the post, also school as i think the 'Toran ' hamon was favoured by the smiths of Osaka (settsu province)

 

many thanks,

Peter

[ROKUJURO]

.....Tanto is fine. I was just reading up a little and wasn't sure how precise you need to be in terminology on tanto/wakazashi.

As far as I know one SHAKU is 30.3 cm, so no sweat! It is a TANTO, and this may be a value related point. If it were 30,4 cm the official classification would then be WAKIZASHI which may make it less desirable for some collectors.

[peter]

hello all

 

 

..I think we need a better photo of that part of the mei to know for sure. The picture above isn't the best to make a call with certainty....

 

___________

Chris Bowen

 

 

I hope you can see a little more from these pics Chris and others

[Jean]

Why not Masa Nao

[Gunome]

or masakiyo 正清 ?

[peter]

Thank you Jean and Sabastien, Masa kiyo has been mentioned, but not masa nao, the puzzle goes on, is there anything in the hamon , hada etc to point favourably to either or era to narrow the search?

Peter