Question about Shinsa process

[bigjohnshea]

Hello, I posted this in another forum that does not seem to be well populated, so I figured I'd repost it in a busier place and hopefully get an answer.

 

I'm hoping someone can point me in the direction of some solid/real resources (online or otherwise) that can tell me where the NBTHK Shinsa take place, when, how much the actual fees are for the process, and what relevant details apply. I have done numerous Google searches and found various forms of info that don't all add up.

 

That's really the goal of the post. Everything below is just elaboration.

 

Recently I bought a Shinto era Mumei katana from a reputable dealer who had it on consignment. It is well stained and has some scratches, but the blade appears to be very tight, unchipped, tip is great, the hamon is just visible beneath. The Koshirae need a lot of work too, and unfotunately the tang was chopped off at the second menuki hole for whatever reason. I got it fairly cheap, and I figure it will need a few years and a few thousand dollars worth of work to get it back into some condition that would resemble its former glory. I'll be happy just to have this sword in good condition and in my collection, but if I can get someone in a Shinsa to identify the smith, it will be nice to be able to attach the name of the smith to what will hopefully be a beautiful blade. I'm also shopping for a polisher so if someone is interested in some work in the near future, please message me. He's the sword:

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihonto_c/4 ... /30/30.htm

 

I started looking into the process of Shinsa, and I'm not getting any clear understanding of what the real process is. Some older websites imply there are NBTHK Shinsa held at American Token Kai events, some websites say that Shinsa are only held in Japan. Some say that it costs 75$ to submit a blade to an American Shinsa, and 75$ for the Origami if it passes Shinsa, and others say that the Japanese Shinsa costs hundreds of dollars just to submit a blade, a 500$ deposit in case it passes Shinsa. Then, if it passes Shinsa, the Origami may cost thousands depending on the level of rating given. I also can't find any information about when upcoming Shinsa are taking place, how often they take place, and which ones are legitimate Shinsa because there are small organizations (like collecting clubs or kendo schools) that hold their own Shinsa which are obviously useless to a collector who wants to get an Origami that could attribute the blade to a smith.

 

I'd appreciate some direction on where to get legit information.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Jean]

This will answer most of your questions.

 

NBTHK shinsa is only held in Japan

 

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/nbthkshinsa.htm

[paulb]

Hi,

Just to prevent confusion. The only place the NBTHK carry out Shinsa currently is in Japan.

A list of their prices can be found on their English langauge website

http://www.touken.or.jp/english/

As I think Jean mentioned in a different thread the submission cost for Hozon papers is around $320 but you then have to look at shipping handling and agents fees on top of this. check out Bob Benson's site for more up to date information and pricing.

The lower cost shinsa's you mention in your mail are carried out by the two different NTHK organisations, The NTHK and the NTHK-NPO. Chris Bowen who is a regular contributor to this site organises the NPO events in the USA and I am sure can offer you help.

[Jean]

Hi Paul,

 

I already attached the link to Bob Benson site which links to NBTHK site and I precised that NBTHK shinsa was only held in Japan :D

[paulb]

sorry!!

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you both for your time, and for sharing your knowledge.

 

I'm still very new to collecting swords, and this is my first antique Katana purchase. Hope it was a good one. :-) All my other purchases in the past have been from celebrated American Smiths who, in my opinion, take the same pride in their work as I suspect the current and older Japanese Smiths would.

 

I will look forward to learning more from you folkls here.

 

Have an excellent Sunday!

[cabowen]

To give you a quick overview, there are three main organizations that have shinsa services. The NBTHK is only in Japan, and costs about 3-4 times what the others cost. You have to send the blade to Japan to an agent, pay for import/export, shipping/insurance, agent fees, and the NBTHK shinsa fees. They hold sword shinsa every other month, except when they are on vacation (August) or holding Juyo shinsa (fall).

 

The NTHK-NPO, with which I am affiliated, comes to the US every 6-7 years. I am considering bringing them over in the next year or so for a mail in shinsa. Costs would be in the $300 range. Let me know by pm if you want further info.

 

There is another NTHK group that holds shinsa overseas. You can search this site for information about them.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi, John is it?

Every beginner wants to: 1. have his 1st blade polished, 2. have koshirae made for it, and 3. take the blade to shinsa. Sometimes this makes sense; often times not. See FAQ above for a more thorough discussion of the topic.

Grey

[bigjohnshea]

Yes, John is my name, I just use bigjohnshea because it has become my username for most things that require a login ID.

 

Thanks again for your numerous insights.

 

Cabowen, I will PM you on Tuesday or Wednesday for more info. I am a medical school student and have some tests coming up that I need to focus on. Once they pass I will have a semester break and I will endeavor to get more information from you.

 

Grey, thank you for recommending the link. I will utilize it as soon as possible.

 

If you or anyone else has a moment, and wouldn't mind sharing your insights on the sword I have purchased, I would appreciate hearing them. There is a link in the first comment up above.

 

Many thanks.

[Brian Ayres]

Welcome John,

 

What I believe Grey was alluding to in asking your name, is the forum has a rule that you must sign your posts with your name. There is a sticky covering this... :D

 

Regards,

 

Brian Ayres

[bigjohnshea]

Oops, most have missed that. Apologies.

[nagamaki - Franco]

If you or anyone else has a moment, and wouldn't mind sharing your insights on the sword I have purchased, I would appreciate hearing them. There is a link in the first comment up above.

 

Hi John,

 

The 'hacked off' nakago really hurts this sword from a 'collectors' stand point (there's a saying something to the effect that the nakago makes up 1/2 the value of the sword). My suggestion before sending it for shinsa is to speak to a very talented polisher to see what the possiilites are to weigh the possible outcome towards the end result. If this is a Shinto or later sword and the shallow sori suggests that is likely, the cost of restoration in light of the nakago leave the option of restoration a difficult decision. Typically there are two types of collectors, those that are not bothered by imperfections and those that are. If cost versus final value isn't a big issue and imperfections are not a bother then ....., but if they are ...... .

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you, Franco, for your insights.

 

Do you know of any reasons why this nakago would have been so crudely cut short? Perhaps a reason that would be fitting to the era it was supposedly made in?

 

I recently received what I think is a very reasonable fee (given the few times I have worked with polishers) for restoration of the polish alone. I will do as you suggest and inquire with this polisher about his thoughts concerning the potential for submission to Shinsa. I buy swords because I find them beautiful and meaningful, not as an investment, and so my interest in finding the origin of the sword is purely for the purpose of granting the school or smith the credit for what I hope will become a beautiful part of my collection.

 

The condition of the Nakago does not bother me personally, so I suppose I fit into the former of your categories of collectors.

 

Thank you again.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi John,

Be careful with very reasonable polishers. Very reasonable usually means not properly trained and not properly trained usually means a damaged or even ruined sword. The most expensive polishes are the ones that cost the least.

Before you give a sword to a polisher, even a sword with a gimei Kotetsu signature, be sure he has proper training. If you are unsure from what the polisher has told you you can ask here for advice.

Grey

[nagamaki - Franco]

You're welcome, John.

 

Do you know of any reasons why this nakago would have been so crudely cut short?

 

Unfortunately, most hack jobs appear on swords after they make their way overseas by people that don't know any better, and not in Japan. Over the past twenty years I have seen a number of swords like yours and heard from WWII vets that returning service men would hack off part of the sword in order to hide them in their duffle bags before boarding the ship home.

 

FYI, http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

P.S. John, adding to Grey's words, not only will an excellent polisher bring out the best in the sword, but he would also see to it that the nakago is refinished correctly. Any less of a polisher may blow the chance.

[bigjohnshea]

Grey and Nagamaki,

 

Thank you for your additional insights and advice.

 

The "reasonable fee" for the polishing service that I was given is $1500. I do not think that this includes any work to the Nakago. I never thought to ask about that. I have read that modifying a nakago is sort of like forbidden territory, and I assumed this included previously modified ones as well.

 

I felt that 1500$ was a fair, but not a terribly undervalued price. I have paid 1800-2100$ before for polishers to work on new blades that came in Binsui polish, but I don't know if 1500$ is a fair price for a restoration or if it's just lower because this company uses that same person for the bulk of their work. Atleast that is what I have been told.

 

The company was unwilling to give me his name, but they offered to send samples of his work. Once I receive those samples, I will try to post them here. If any of you have the time to give an opinion of his work once I have images, I would appreciate your further insights.

 

Does anyone here have the name of one or two polishers they trust, who I could contact for their opinions?

 

I wish you all a pleasant Monday. As pleasant as Monday can be.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi John,

Bob Benson in Hawaii is a classically trained polisher and will give you a straight answer. Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco, ditto. Either of these polishers would be good ones to advise you.

$1,500 to polish a katana seems too reasonable. We may not be able to tell much from photos of past work. Unless the photos show terrible work, problems may not show up in a photo. Also, photos of past work don't necessarily say anything about future work. Why is the company unwilling to give you the polisher's name? Isn't that a red flag? Tell us who the company is; maybe we can tell you what to expect from them.

Grey

[bigjohnshea]

Grey,

Thank you for the recommendations. I will contact them both after my tests tomorrow.

 

I wondered myself what would be the reason for not wanting to give me the polisher's name. Perhaps it is simply that they have a working relationship with him and do not want to have others interrupt his availability for their customers. Here is the link to the webpage where the sword was purchased.

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/

 

They appear to be a small family owned company that both collects and sells Japanese swords and antiques. The person I have largely been in contact with is Tim Pepin, and he has always been very fair and expedient with me.

 

Thank you again for all your advice and help. I will keep you informed of what I learn in the future about this sword, and its progress through restoration.

 

Have a great day.

[Sam Elliott]

Hi John,

 

I have had several conversations with Tim, but have not yet made a purchase. Thus far he has been very responsive and more than willing to answer questions, but I would certainly like to hear from others who have had dealings with him.

 

Sorry for getting off the beaten path a bit here with a mild hi - jacking.