watsonmil Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Dear Jan, I cannot rule out the example or COPY you purchased was not made in Japan. And yes the Japanese did have a short large bore gun that was loaded with shot ( not common ) obviously made for combat rather than hunting. Just for the hell of it, I searched for and found among my boxes of parts an example of the brass shot holding tube virtually identical to yours, ... the inside diameter measured 1.5 cm. and I know mine was meant for a hunting shotgun. You must also remember that the Japanese were fond of bird shooting, and so would also used shotguns for hunting waterfowl. As I stated before there is probably no way of determining whether your example was made in Japan or acquired by trade from an American/European ..... WHAT I can say with certainty is that if of Japanese manufacture it is still a COPY of an European design meant for measuring various loads of shot. ... Ron Watson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 As Ron said, there is little doubt about what it is. Quite common in old collections. Where it was made is only a guess..but what it is, isn't. Among old guns I have seen in Japan, you can find any number of old percussion pieces from Adams/Tranters, to Colts, to old single shot English Muff pistols. So I am very sure there were any number of old English shotguns with accessories such as this one..for birdshot and larger. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper6924 Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I´m pretty sure that You are right about Your suggestion that this could be European/American, Ron. Or copied in Japan. I was most surprised to find info about this "Iron-shot teppo". From description a very solid and respectful "trenchcleaner". Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Piers showed a box like this one as being an ammo box, I have seen a few like it before but did not know their use, this one just sold in Japan for quite a high price for a small box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k morita Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Hi, It is written to the box side as TATOTSU. TATOTSU means as place name TADOTSU, or TADOTSU clan in Shikoku .多度津 The family crest also matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Thank you Morita San. The rest of the writing suggests an ammunition box for small arms. The Kamon and writing have probably given added value to this nice little chest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Thank you Morita san and Piers for the translations. Piers you may be right about why it was sought after, there is another one right now that is not getting much interest, it looks like the drawers may have been replaced and there is no writing on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Eric, that looks like a more purposeful locking ammo box. Those may actually be original drawers. Sometimes the drawers have writing on the sides or bottoms. Without seeing more pics I cannot be sure, but if you want a good deal on an ammo chest with a limited budget, this could be a good one for someone to go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper6924 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I was watching a fierce auctionwar between buyers who really wanted some samuraiflags. The war is now over So I just wanted to ask how this flag was used? It´s rather small if You compare it to the pack of smokes. Supposed to be from the boshin-wars. They had two up for sale. /Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 given the plethora of small boxes and chest of drawers in Japan, how do we know with certainty that this small box was made as a locking ammo chest? Seems there would be a nice market for buying these small chests and writing ammo on the sides, then putting them up for auction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Considering the use of matchlocks....what ammunition was locked away? Doesn't seem like there would be much point in locking away lead balls...and cartridges weren't used extensively enough to have dedicated locked boxes? Was it gunpowder that was locked up? Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Jan, I have one of these little flags which was kindly given to me by a well-known Tokyo dealer. I assumed it was a sode jirushi, tied onto the sode to show allegiance. As I was leaving he commented 'It might be a luggage label.' As for the so-called ammunition boxes, note the first one has no lock, just a catch. Apart from the writing and kamon, obviously done at the same time with the same paint, it could equally be a box to carry a craftsman's tools or a thousand other uses. The second, shown by Eric, does have a lock and could equally be used for all manner of purposes. In Zobyo Monogatari, the ammo supplier is shown with a box on his back with shoulder straps rather than handles to sling from a pole. Ian Bottomley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Hi,It is written to the box side as TATOTSU. TATOTSU means as place name TADOTSU, or TADOTSU clan in Shikoku .多度津 The family crest also matches. 森田さn Why would it be in Katakana and not Kanji or at least hiragana? I thought it was Taatsu ターツ, but see how the "to" ト could be read. ありがとうございます グラント Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estcrh Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Here is another interesting box, and quite rare, once I had a chance to examine it I understood why these are not seen very often despite once being quite common. The wood is very thin and yet each panel was drilled and pegged together with wood dowels only. 58 cm x 52 cm x 53 cm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k morita Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Piers san, Is it a small dot of Katakana which the arrow shows? Or it's a scratche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Well, Morita San, I cannot be sure, but the dot seems to be colored/coloured red. Combine that with the matching Kamon, and despite the lack of a dakuten to change 'to' into 'do', Occam's Razor would suggest that your theory of the reading Tatotsu (Tadotsu) makes the best immediate sense. Going with Justin's suggestion of Taatsu makes the problem more obscure, to me anyway. Justin, what did you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Been so busy this week helping with the local sword society's display at the local Life Study Center/Centre, citizens' hall. Some beautiful examples of Nihonto, Saya, Tsuka(maki) and tsuba, both old and some newly-made by mostly Bizen artisans. Various books on swords and matchlocks. They have given me a guide badge and left the teppo section up to me, so each day I have been refreshing one wall with decorative gun-related bits, such as teppo and peripherals, prints/paintings, helmets, Jingasa, Jimbaori, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper6924 Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 and I´m sure there will be pictures later from this teppo-section? Please... :D Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Last year there was a huge section packed with guns of all shapes and sizes, but this year it is much more laid back, with a revolving menu of slightly different content each day. Strangely, what remains most strongly in my mind after two days was this one tsuba with a kin-zogan Buddhist bell carved into it... in the round! How thick is that?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Under thick glass, so hard to get a clear shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 The exploded section for touch and handling both a sword and a matchlock. Two shots of the overall non-swords/tsuba section on Day 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Took over 100 low-density photos. Here are a few for general feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 That tsuba is awesome. :D Thanks for sharing Piers. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Indeed! The Juto Terukane isn't bad either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yes, it is as if each piece has been chosen carefully for some unusual but unspoken quality. Here are some closer shots of Tanegashima peripherals for Jan who was asking. The first shot is the first day... and the rest are from the second day. (Tomorrow I will be doing another rearrangement, despite the approaching typhoon... :lol: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Oh, what the hell, a couple more from the first day for luck! And these are before the swords and tsuba... (interestingly I was struck by how some of the modern work being shown by these young and upcoming artists can be just as good in its own right as anything produced centuries ago. Talent is talent. Genius is genius. Such work transcends time and place.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper6924 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Well, I can safely say that I had my daily dose of tanegashima stimulation. Great pictures. Looks like a very nice collection. I have a bit further to go with my own collection I especially like the fat stocky teppo with the ramrod thick like a drumstick. Thanks again for taking the time with the pictures! Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Glad you enjoyed them Jan. Spent the evening framing a couple of Ukiyo-e to take tomorrow. Should I take my last hold-out guns or not? Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 View of the locking glass viewing cases from the other end. (For swords and Tosogu.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Just for fun here are two matching Kutani-ware Tokkuri I found not too long ago. I do not think they are very old, but I like the design of the travelling samurai group. Hard to photo all the way round, so I allowed one to pick up where the other left off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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